patty a saint

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Empaths in love

By: patty a saint
Posted in: Relationships
I cannot create a successful romantic relationship. The problem is that my ability to read every slight untruth or feeling of guilt from my partners is so strong! Apparently all men do things on line or in their day to day interactions that they know would probably hurt the feelings of the woman in their life like being too friendly with the woman at the coffee shop or chatting on fb with someone they're attrcted to.
Most woman can roll their eyes, laugh it off and accept it as men being men.
Unfortunately, I feel the situation as it's happening then feel the guilt and feel his nervous worry about what he's done. This makes my suspicion go to overload and I ask too many questions.
I'm thinking that relationships can't happen for me.
Does anyone else have this problem?
01/01/18 01:19:59PM @crystalsage:
Relationships can happen. Iuts just an unfortunate fact that Many people are not honest. Rather than look at your abilities as the culprit use them. I can look at someone who appears to be wonderful and get the feeling that tells me to walk away. I used to feel guilty and befriend or date the person anyway. Then something would happen and I would remember that feeling. Trust in self us the most important tool for an empath. Especially when it comes to dealling with others. It sounds like then men you are meeting my have insecurities which is why when you are around them you are not with a whirlwind of emotions. While being insecure is noit a crime, insecure peop is are like kryptonite for empath. They unknowingly latch onto our energies and my even "posses" us. It happens because we are absorbent. Being around us is like being around a her strong cleansing Crystal. They need us and don t know why. That can be problematic. Take long deep breaths that fill the belly when entering new relationships. This will help ground you and expel any absorb energy. Remember that as empaths we cannot always befriend everyone. The instinct becoomes to heal and a person has to be ready to let go of their pain before any interference can occur on our part. RELATIONSHIPS CAN DEFINITELY HAPPEN FOR YOU!!!!
01/01/18 01:21:02PM @crystalsage:
Ok so my comment has many typos..sorry
patty a saint
01/01/18 03:47:18PM @patty-a-saint:
Thanks so very much @crystalsage! I'm full of questions and appreciate solid advice!
01/01/18 03:53:24PM @crystalsage:
You're welcome. I'm just glad I can help. The more we relate to each other the more we grow.
01/03/18 06:31:42PM @crystalsage:
There is a free book online. It is called book of storms. It's purpose is to help empaths master their ability. Haven't finished but so far I like it.
01/05/18 09:23:31PM @sandra-fernandez:


patty a saint
01/06/18 04:03:20AM @patty-a-saint:
Thanks Sandra! I'm sorry to hear you suffer from the same issues as I but happy to hear I'm not alone. It's just so hard to look into your mate's eyes and know they're lying to you on some level, as they deny everything. It's a deal breaker. I'm still trying to remain in my current relationship and working to make it as drama-free as possible. Not much progress so far. Have a wonderful day!
Cat Whisperer
01/07/18 06:48:58PM @cat-whisperer:
Hi, I am dealing with that exact thing with my husband going on 10 years. In the beginning I was overlooking the lying thing but lately it has become too much for me to deal with. I love him but I cannot tolerate the disrespect of continued lying any longer. The every day lies like “did you wash your hands before preparing food” and he’ll say yes when I know better. I would just overlook to keep the peace but I I am to the point where I am calling him on each and every lie that flows out of his mouth like water. Needless to’s not pretty. Then the “gaslighting” starts. Oh I didn’t do that or I didn’t say that like if he says it I’ll believe it! I have given him more than enough chances to quit lying but it is a very bad habit that he refuses to work on. Sadly, it is going to be our demise. He knows that I am a human b.s. detector but it continues like he doesn’t care.
Cheshire Cat
01/08/18 10:58:09AM @cheshire-cat:

I have the same problem, though my husband lies only when he knows the truth will make me angry or upset me with worry. He knows I can read lies, but it is an automatic habit with him. He developed this habit as the scapegoat child of a father with full blown Narcissistic Personality Disorder. He is also afraid to confront people or make decisions, for the same reason, so I've had to be more of a mother than a wife. Because of that background, I make excuses for him, since he is otherwise a great guy. He just won an award for his charity work again, and has more friends than anyone I've ever known. We've been married 32 years. Would I marry him again knowing what I know now? NO. I would run like hell. However, for me a 32 yr. investment has made me love him more than my own life, which is how I feel about anyone whose been close to me for that long. I am very ill now to the point where I can't live alone, and have no family, so I would be much worse off if I left.

I am wondering if there are any extenuating circumstances in any of these cases that might make it possible to work with the person or understand it more, assuming they are willing to work at it. I am NOT saying don't leave, not at all! I am just saying it is damn hard to find someone you can stand to be around at all if you can read lies, since most people lie a lot, so if someone is otherwise good for you, and there is a background reason why they are acting this way, maybe that could help with acceptance like it has for me. I hope this is understood in the spirit in which it is offered. I am NOT saying to stay with a Narc. If the person himself is a Narc, Sociopath or Psychopath, then I'd say just the opposite, no matter the length of the relationship or age of the people involved. But, if he is the victim of having been born to one of those, and has imprinted the bad behavior from watching the Narc, etc., maybe help can be found, or maybe it can be worked around. We now have something we say at our house when the other one is playing unfair in a discussion to stop it dead and make the other one aware of what they did/said. Will my husband really change a lot? No chance. He is almost 70. However, I am betting most of you are like me and love so deeply that leaving is just not as easy as it is for most people. But, maybe I am wrong. I surely would leave if I were young and healthy and it had been a short relationship. 

01/08/18 09:54:33PM @crystalsage:
@cheshire-cat I come from a difficult background filled with difficult people. This has made me very cautious with any relationship. In fact I left home for ten years so I could avoid everyone. I recently had a taro reading in which I pulled the five of cups. The man doing my reading said that it meant to focus on the positive. The card showed three fallen cups in front of a man who was sad about the spilled liquid.Behind the man where two cups that had not fallen and still retained their liquid. I was thrown off by this as I feel I am a person who focuses on the positive. Went home this year for the holidays and realized very quickly not very much had changed. I found my thoughts quickly growing dark. I started to get irritated and then remembered the reading. So regardless of the validity of my thoughts I focused on the positive. When I started doing this I realized I initially had no positive thoughts. I had to work hard to find them. In some cases I had to get creative. I actually began to feel better. I now feel like the negative registers loudly on our empathic radar as a method of protection. I will always see it and never have to put effort into it. However with some the positive can be harder to see for whatever reason. What I am noticing is that the more I search for the positive the more I am able to get a balanced view of a person. Which has made being at home the easiest it has ever been, and it was never easy. It has made it easier to love them and still protect myself. They have not changed. They lie, manipulate, cheat, scam. Their negative qualities will probably always be there. I have no choice but to notice them. But searching out the positive is helping me too see all they have to offer. I understand why they are the way they are and I can forgive them. And of course set my boundaries accordingly.
Cheshire Cat
01/09/18 07:19:38AM @cheshire-cat:


That is truly amazing progress! :-)

That we see the negative first for protection is true, I think. I think this trait persists in humanity, despite the increasing hardship on those who have it, and despite our modern attempt to divorce ourselves from nature, because we were probably the protection for our tribes long ago. We would've been first to hear twigs breaking as the rival tribe snuck up to attack or the lion approached, or would have somehow known where the animals we hunted for food were hiding, etc. The empath trait has been found in the same percentage of animals as in people. The zebras who follow the first zebra who starts running (the empath), even though they may not see the lion chasing them yet, are the ones who live.

Basic temperement is like the hard drive in a computer. Those who have a melancholy temperament are always going to see the negative easier. This is genetic. Melancholics are needed. Virtually all great artists, writers and musicians have been melancholics. We are more prone to depression as well, obviously. I do think being melancholic and an empath makes it harder. I also think having personality type INFJ, which many of us do despite it being very rare, makes it a lot harder. Being a sensitive water sign may make it harder. I think most of us need to give ourselves a break and not expect to be like non-empaths. Just my two cents.

I've read a lot about how deliberately thinking about positive memories in detail for an hour per day can rewire the brain to make more connections to positive thoughts and memories. I have been depressed so long I find it impossible to come up with ten minutes worth of positive memories, let alone an hour, but if you can do this, results are supposed to be life-changing. I do it for the few minutes I can, and then make up some fake happy memories, which is supposed to be second best. The brain makes more and more connections between things you think about, so a bad memory may come up right away when thinking of a particular person, if you have dwelt on it a lot. I am working on this and I do understand where people's behavior comes from....I am a trained behavioral therapist. However, true unconditional forgiveness eludes me. I only have achieved the kind of forgiveness that comes with time and distance, and the only way I can maintain boundaries without reacting in a manner that hurts me is through avoidance. 

I applaud your achievement in being able to be around people like that and set boundaries and not let it affect you or get a rise out of you or make your heart act in dangerous ways like it did to me. I wish I could do that. I had to cut my husband's whole family out of my life once I stopped taking pain drugs for my fibromyalgia/Lyme. Unknowingly, the pills had  also numbed out the way those very sick people made me feel. My husband felt the same way and totally agreed with me on cutting them out, but it was very hard, since they all lived within walking distance of us and the worst of the bunch still live right next door! We put up a high, solid fence and haven't spoken to them in at least 15 yrs. except through lawyers. I can't even imagine being able to do what you are doing and wish you all the best.

C. Cat 

Cat Whisperer
01/09/18 07:22:39PM @cat-whisperer:
@cheshire-cat The lying goes a lot deeper than just casual lies, funny my husband also had a scapegoat childhood...that is what has led me to turn a blind eye for so long. However, it has turned into deliberate undermining with lies to cover up the fact that he has pretty much instilled in all of his adult kids and their spouses that it is ok to disrespect me....and now it has spread to one of his employees. He works with two of his kids on the farm here, everyone lives in close proximity. Another thing that goes along with the deception is that he lets his kids walk all over him, he constantly buys things for them and helps pay their bills, but if I need help with something he’s broke. I confront about the spending and I get lies. They try to walk over me....I set a boundary and all of the sudden I’m the ass. The last straw was involving his employee, who didn’t want taxes taken out of his checks so in May it met with both the employee and my husband and advised them both that he HAS to have taxes withheld. Everyone agreed. All year long I kept asking hubby if he paid this not at all, he’d say. Well November rolls around, I’m working on the books and find he had paid this guy all year! Without tax withholding! My husband says, oh he didn’t want taxes taken out so he didn’t withhold taxes and just didn’t tell me. I am an accountant by trade...have been for 30 years so I know the laws but both of them ignored the whole thing. Then I confront hubby about the lying all year...he tells me that I never asked! Seriously? I asked all year. That’s gaslighting....a narc tactic to make you question yourself. So a lot deeper than just everyday lying about petty things. Then I had to argue with both husband and employee about the laws! Total undermining...what message does that send to his employee about my significance. He does this with his kids also... it is so bad that Christmas I shopped for all the kids, spouses, grandkids (7 of them) hosted the celebration as I have done for the last 10 years, they all went together and gave husband and myself one joint gift.....that they all will use more than we will. Not the first time they all give a gift to hubby that the kids will all use, but really I can’t blame them, after all he has conditioned them all that they can do that and it’s ok...very self centered family. I bring that up to my husband afterwards in private...he gets pissed at me for telling the truth. He can’t handle my always ends in him having a yelling tantrum and me leaving the house till he cools down. Very tiring indeed. I have tried what @crystal-sage mentioned about the positive thought, trying to find the positive in them, which I do see but yet the way everyone treats me, it is very hard. The nicer I am the more I am treated like sh&t. I have to show myself some respect and have pretty much cut ties with them....New Years resolution in a more people pleasing!
Cheshire Cat
01/09/18 08:26:01PM @cheshire-cat:

Wow, cat-whisperer, that really looks like this is a case of the scapegoat kid becoming a narc too. Usually it is the golden child, like in my BIL's case, but with a Narc as their role model, anything can happen. My BIL is a narcopath and has done things that would put him in prison for life if we could afford a criminal lawyer. I am so sorry for how it seems it is you against the world. I would not be able to tolerate that either. I had all of my husband's aunts and uncles on my side. They are all dead now, but at least they were there when I quit being part of the family. Self-absorbed family is right....I'm with you on that too...not a considerate one in the whole lot. 

My husband does that with me as far as the undermining what I say sometimes, because he cannot say no to anyone but me. I just told a friend of his no, he can't work for you today since he just had surgery on his arm yesterday and shouldn't use it for a week. The "friend" went behind my back and called him on his cell, he did the work anyway to get the supply of praise, and came home with dried blood all down his arm and a shirt sleeve so bloody the shirt had to be thrown out. I was much more pissed at the "friend" than at my husband. If he'd come around, I would have confronted him, as much as I hate doing that. I have really had it with the users in this world.

A Narc will always treat you more like shit the nicer you are. They see goodness as weakness, but simultaneously as looking like you are better than they are, which is not to be tolerated and must be destroyed. I'm sure you already know this stuff. Do you have any plan of what to do, besides not having holiday dinners? This sounds like a daily problem, just like what I had, with them all around you. 

I have to go to bed now, but I will add you to my prayer list for my morning meditation. 

C. Cat

patty a saint
01/10/18 02:36:44AM @patty-a-saint:
I'm reading all of this in absolute and complete understanding of everything you're feeling because my life is so similar! The lying, sneaky man I chose to stay with is a constant source of extreme anxiety. He still lies about so many things. I've given up on trying to find anyone else. These are the people that end up in my life...selfish, manipulative and unabashedly dishonest... So I let him back in. This has to be a result of our little "gift". We must drive well adjusted, kind people away and attract those remorseless, disrespectful people who expect you at their side no matter what they do to you. My family can be tough too. They make plans to vacation together. I get so excited when they ask if I have the time off until I figure out they aren't inviting me to go, they're asking me to pet sit while they're gone. I knew something was wrong. They all say that I'm difficult to live with. Well...maybe. I FEEL EVERYTHING! I can only operate in truths. Lies are huge annoyances. I will nicely and kindly call you out on attempts to manipulate, lies and plain rude disrespect because no matter how sly you might be, it's so obvious to me! If that makes you feel poorly about yourself, guilty for your own behavior, then I suspect I may be hard to live with! We need to find a way to turn our backs to these people in thier bad behavior and live in JOY and PEACE. I'm trying to learn to pull out of the deep depression they feed and be very selfish with my happiness. These people suck the peace and joy right out of my world. I'm determined to learn how to make that stop!
Cat Whisperer
01/10/18 06:32:33AM @cat-whisperer:
@cheshire-cat Sad thing is, I think I might have brought out the narc part. For years the sun rose and set in him, I totally put him on a pedastle. I did this to build up his self esteem....then he changed. But I changed too, I have self esteem now and won’t dote like I used to. I do believe he has self esteem issues. Found an article about low self esteem men will put down the wife as a means to make himself feel better. He also can’t say no to anyone but me, I have also told someone no, then behind my back they ask him and they get what they want....a yes. I’m pretty much done with the whole scenario. Just biding my time to get all my ducks in a row. I know there is a life better for me out there....I can feel it in my heart.....and gut.
Cheshire Cat
01/10/18 07:38:13AM @cheshire-cat:


In my case, I rejected several of the nice, loving men, mostly because they came along too early and I thought I had places to go, things to do, and people to see, lol. The present hurts all the more because I had a couple of men who treated me the same as I treated them in the past. One was even an empath. I was only 17 when I met him though. Timing is a lot in life. I actually looked for him when things got really bad here and found out he had died.

I do believe decent people are out there, but all of us are subconsciously attracted to people like our parents, and then we try to fix the problems we had with them with the partner, unless we've had a whole lot of therapy. Even then it's hard. I went to ACOA for awhile, read all their books, made a list of things I really needed in a partner rather than wanted, and went out looking, deliberately running from anyone I felt chemistry with, as they had taught me. (We feel automatic chemistry for those who like our parents). I picked my husband because he had, or seemed to have the things I need most, and it took a couple of decades to realize I had nevertheless ended up with someone much like my father anyway. Who people tell you they are is based on their relative experience, based on their background, and basic definitions can be wildly different between people as a result. I hope I am explaining that clearly. Example: My husband told me he had integrity, was old-fashioned and would protect and care for me. By that point in life I'd realized I was no longer the super strong, radical feminist I'd been groomed to be, and that I needed a strong man to buffer me from the harsh realities of life. I still had never heard the word "empath", so only knew I was more sensitive and more easily hurt and had much higher standards.  Relative to the family members he grew up with, he indeed had and has integrity, far more than they do, he is more protective than they are. However, he is basing that on a different definition than I am with my background. I hope that is clearer. 

I think it is more a case of those people are attracted to us and come after us, so they are the ones we end up meeting. We seem to have "Use me" tattooed on our foreheads! I think maybe going very slow with advancing the relationship is the answer, long enough so the person cannot keep up a pretense, and long enough that you find out what the meaning is behind the words they use, though that is hard in today's fast paced atmosphere, and especially if you have a ticking biological clock and want kids. I hope you can find someone decent. I do believe it is possible! You deserve it. :-)

Cat Whisperer
01/10/18 07:52:56AM @cat-whisperer:
@patty-a-saint Life is full of lessons....we get the same people in our life till we learn from them. After acknowledging the lesson, I’m sure we will find a better life. I have had the vacation scenario also....just replace pets with kids. It really hurts seeing how manipulative, dishonest, self centered people can be. You are right, they do not like the truth we speak since it exposes who they really are. Off with the masks! They cannot handle seeing their own truths. Blessings
Cheshire Cat
01/10/18 08:09:20AM @cheshire-cat:


I too have unknowingly fed the Narc exactly like you did. I could see his father had full blown NPD. I could see, and had been told, that he was being unfairly treated compared to his brother, who was a lying moocher and being allowed to get away with all sorts of stuff. I could see his severe lack of self esteem, since when I met him, he was working 60 hrs. a week, but charging so little for his work that he was eligible for food stamps and living in a dump with no heat or a/c and furniture he got from his clients trash! Daddy dearest had told him over and over that his work was lousy, so much so that he should pay people to work for them, not vice versa, and that everything he'd ever done and said was wrong. This was due to daddy's jealously that his son did far better work than he did and already had a huge clientele, far larger than his father's, with people waiting 6 months to have him do their work. That was partly due to his cheap prices though., but if he had self esteem, he would have realized his likability and excellent work were his ticket to get away from daddy, and he couldn't have that.  I really had to work to get him to have enough confidence to raise his charges by just $1 an hour. It took over a year. Eventually, I got him to where he was making as much by himself as a middle class family of four, but then the market crashed. I just did not realize at first how badly he'd been crippled by his Narc daddy and Stockholm syndrome mommy,  and the drugs I was on for my pain and muscle spasms were numbing out my upset over it's effects, making me think I could handle anything. 

I'd had very little training in NPD. I went to the Univ. rated no. 2 in the world in my field, but was taught only how to recognize and diagnose NPD, and nothing about it's wide ranging damage, or that the children of these people are ruined by them. I was told they are so rare, I'd probably never even meet one, let alone see one in my practice. The reason you never see them in therapeutic  practice is that they never come. No matter how many people disagree with them, they think the others are always in the wrong, not them. I also was not taught that there is a spectrum of this, and while actual NPD may be rare as I was taught (I still know 3 people with NPD, despite a tiny social circle!), people with some degree of Narc tendencies are everywhere, especially now days. I had to learn all this on my own. So much for higher education, lol. 

I don't think we should blame ourselves for this. We were doing what we naturally do, helping someone who seemed to have gotten an unfair deal. When we're young, we all think we can fix people. Females especially seem to believe this. If only I love him enough, he'll stop (fill in the blank). It's usually too late to stop us from loving the person when we finally realize we can't change anyone else, and it's damn hard to change ourselves too. A "normal" friend of mine with a non-Narc spouse called me last night and she told me she thinks all men are children. I would not say all, but an awful lot of them seem to be quite willing to take more than they give if they can get away with it, something most women would consider immoral. I would go so far as to say it seems to me to be biological with them.

I also agree with you that low self esteem people in general will put others down to make themselves feel better and this is the reason why Narcs try to destroy those whom they think make them look like "less than", which  includes anyone who stands up to them or is obviously a better person. They have no concept of equality, only lower or higher. People they deem as "less than" them are babied by them, so they can get praise (supply) from them and keep them around. Hence, being the golden child of a Narc is not a compliment. It just means that child is weak enough to be manipulated by the Narc. 

Another reason for their angry reaction when someone disagrees with them, does not live the way they think you should, or do what they want, is that they have no concept of separation between you and them, and that you are an individual. To them, there is only one person here, them. This comes from lack of proper bonding with their primary caretaker as a baby, usually because that person was a Narc, and already had a golden child whom all his or her attention was lavished on. In recent years, extreme entitlement and overt spoiling of kids has produced a different kind of Narc. Whatever the background reason, you are a part of them, not a separate person, so when you disagree with them, it is like their right arm suddenly popped up on it's own and started slapping them in the face and they can't get it to stop! 

I have written a book. If you read this far, thank you for putting up with my rant! I don't know what the solution is for us. Money is not falling from the sky. Nobody has waved a wand over me and cured me so I can live alone and as much as I need a lot of alone time, I have too much already. Friends have not offered to take me in for the rest of my life. So, one day at a time I guess. Any other ideas are welcome!

Big hugs to all of you in this situation,

C. Cat

04/03/18 10:46:21AM @holly5757:

OH MY GOSH!!! Someone that gets me! If you read my profile I was trying to say the same about my husband. It has caused terrible issues with us lately. I cannot seem to get over my feelings and he tries his best to deny any wrong doing. BUT I FEEL IT, I already know what he has done. I feel his guilt or thoughts or whatever it is. I cannot really tell him and I do not have anyone that really gets me to talk to. So I have tried to research myself. That is how I found this site.

Cheshire Cat
04/03/18 01:58:20PM @cheshire-cat:

Hi Holly,

    I'm not sure which of us you are addressing....maybe all of us! I've been so sick lately that I hardly get to be on here any longer, but I had a feeling I should come here today. ....I hope you know you are definitely not alone here. Lots of us are in this boat.

     If you do a Google search or check out YouTube, you will find endless articles and videos about the attraction and relationship between empaths and narcissists. On YouTube, I especially like Joanna Kujath's channel. There is also a site called The Mind's Journal that has a whole section near the bottom of their home page full of articles on Narcs and empaths and how to deal with it. You might check out Meet-Ups in your area to see if there are any metaphysical ones, since there are likely to be other empaths there. Metaphysical churches can also be a source. I am homebound due to my illness, but if I were not, I might even start my own Meet-Up, since I also don't know anyone near me who is like me.  If you can't find anyone that way, you might consider it!

     I am glad you found this site. You will get lots of validation here.

     C. Cat

patty a saint
04/07/18 11:34:40AM @patty-a-saint:
Hi Holly, I felt the same relief to find others who understand this. Everyone has been so helpful! I have not made any strides forward dealing with this issue. Its so difficult being overwhelmed with the emotion of it all. Its just like an elephant on my chest. Im sure you know what I mean. I do feel my path will open soon and answers will come. I am SO impatient though! Thank God for the support I find here. I am still searching for affective tools to block negativity and attract good energy and light. I'm betting you are doing the same. Keep me posted! 😊