Questioning The Empath-Narcissist Connection

I am always interested in this relationship. It seems that for a lot of empaths we are born into families with narcissist relatives (siblings, parents etc...). I thought this would make an interesting discussion. Here are a few of my questions that I was hoping to get feedback on:

1) I personally can't stand narcissists. They may me cringe and disgust me. And I make them very uncomfortable as I reject them in my mind as fakers and manipulators. They must pick up on that as narcissists both in and out of my family are really uncomfortable in my presence. So why in the world does the universe throw empaths and narcissists together in the same families? What possible good can come from this? It's a complete struggle just to co-exist.

2) My mother and one of my brothers are narcissists. But they also seem to both be very sensitive and exhibit empath-like skills. Is this typical or is it more a rarity that someone who leans to the narcissist spectrum can also exhibit some empath skills?

3) Please share your empath-narcissist stories so that we can better understand this relationship.

updated by @hop-daddy: 09/01/18 09:39:33AM

I had 2 brothers and the complete opposite of interacting with me as a child and as adult...We were all 5 yrs apart...The good brother in fact died on this day,36yrs ago..he was 10 yrs older..He introduced the theatre to me,took me as a young kid to the circus,invited me to all his parties,which were massive lol,Had my 21st birthday party,and so on....The Middle one you would think we would have had a similar relationship, but he was always trying to get rid of me as in going to the same dances and interacting with his friends and at 10 I looked 15 and socialized great with his friends..I always blew it off thinking who wants their younger sister with them? But many ppl I know didn't have this problem with siblings,in fact they would look out for them..Well the middle one who became a priest is The narcicists and never knew how much he lied and is an evil person to me anyway...His actions are evil and this all surfaced 5 yrs ago!  I kept saying,where did he come from? Myself and the oldest we are cut from the same cloth!  Well I have had my experiences and didn't know it had a name,Empath!  Now knowing what I know now,I wished I knew way back when...lt all makes more sense of his actions toward me..Although until 5 yrs ago he never really let on just how much he didn't want me around...If I didn't have the older brother I probably would think the relationship with the middle one was normal because of the age difference...With him being a Catholic Priest one would think he would have empathy..He has no empathy,in fact to me he learned how to be empathetic ..Another lie about him..He had 0 empath skills,but he was great as an actor! ..And even as far as someone being a tarot reader,etc he never said,oh that's against our religion,although I said before where I grew up this was normal!....No one in my family was like him,not even close...He is a lying no good Anti Christ rat bastard and I'm being nice.... so for me the narcicists had and still has - 0 empathy!  

@deborah-craig:

I agree that narcissists don't have much empathy. But at least in my family they do seem to have empath-like skills. My Mom is hyper sensitive to other's emotions and body language and also shows some clairvoiyant skill. And my brother, who is the more intense of the two, seems to also pick up on vibes and emotion. I also have a father-in-law that is closer to the sociopath spectrum. And he also seems to be very skilled at reading emotional energies as part of his manipulation schemes.

@hop-daddy His relationship with my mother was odd to me,although she was always in his life with church funds,etc...But many times she was hurt emotionally from him and would tell me...One time he told her this is my house and blah blah,he was living upstairs from me so I walked into my apt to find my mother sobbing on the couch from what he said! I would never say that to my mother,plus my mother was a great women and mother ...She would call him up and say the tub was clogged and he would tell her,call a plumber! And it goes on...One day I said you treated your own mother,he interrupted and said don't go there with mother! Mother? He never called her that,but the conversation went elsewhere but he knew I had his number!....No matter between me and my mother he was always to busy,Lies..I said one day you are the busiest person in the world a, I still didn't connect  everything!..

This has always interested me. I have a narcissistic friend who liked and pursued me romantically, but I didn't like her. When she would touch me it felt horrible, i hated it. My mother is a narcissist, but she seemed to have developed that way, not be born that way. Her parents took care of her, and she goes to them for any advice. She is unhappy with her marriage, and she is unhappy with herself. She'll use words she doesn't understand in an effort to seem smarter, and she puts on this happy outer-appearance to everyone she meets in social situations. She is rarely happy at home, and she even in those moments she tries to take control and it just ruins them. She doesn't respect boundaries, especially of me, and she constantly (every day) will complain to me. I personally believe that Narcissists are just hurting people, but the thing is, it's extremely hard to confront someone that unhappy with themselves. I've learned that people get overly defensive when they feel exposed when you see through them. It's impossible to address things when they wont even address the issues themselves. My mother is extremely manipulative and does know how to read people like a book. I'll be honest I cannot stand her most days, but I live with her and I can't move out because I'm in college and broke. 

My brothers are becoming narcissistic, and my twin just joined the marines, and I am scared that it did nothing but feed his ego... I find ego to be one of the biggest factors in Narcissism. My little brother hasn't developed enough yet, he's in middle school currently. I usually attract people who are at a vital point in their life where they may be becoming narcissists, and I've managed to somehow help 3 that I know of... It's exhausting, and I do think some people will just become narcissists, and after they become one it seems hard to turn them back. They are most definitely exhausting, and once they find someone, like an empath, who likes to give out compliments and help people, they hold on and will cage you up if they get close. It's just this constant game of mind chess and I hate it. It is so hard to find positive people, or even alone time when a narcissist gets close and locks on to you.

@hop-daddy I use wanted to elaborate when he said to my mother call a plumber,he had a staff of workers at the church that could go there and resolve this problem! Like she she said,I needed him to tell me to call a plumber!

To clarify, I think that Narcissist can read the same signs as Empaths, but something processes them much differently. Empaths honestly forced to care because we connect, almost unwillingly, and we feel a connection to everything. Narcissist are focused on their life, but are still sensitive to other people's energies, body language, etc.. but they only work, ultimately, in self interest. I don't even think it's a direct attempt to be manipulative or to hurt others, they are just so focused on themselves (and usually their own problems) that they lose sight of everything else and their problems create more problems. Many Narcissist I deal with often complain and focus on the bad and how everything that happens to them seems to be bad, and are often under the impression that they're the only ones struggling through life. Everyone struggles, to each their own, they just become so self-absorbed, not even intentionally i believe, that they reek havoc on those around them.

@loconnoro This brother is a sociopath....And what he did to me,verbally and emotionally abused me ,plus !

I could be wrong but I think one is  born a narcissist just as one is born an empath. I don't think you can convert to one in either case. People can be self-centered and selfish. But narcissists do that on a whole other level that is very innate from day 1 of their lives. 

But that said, our current social media world is bringing out the worst self-centered traits in humans. They aren't all narcs but are in a confused state where it is en vogue to constantly show off yourself, your family, your riches etc... And ironically while we think we are so much more connected with social media, it is artificial and unfulfilling. And I think that is why people in general have been getting more unhappy over the past decade.

And speaking of social media, you can very clearly find the narcs and the sociopaths when you read blogs and posts on other sites. The narcs are classically tied to their own personal agenda of letting the world know how great they are. And the sociopaths are the ugly internet trolls who just for their own kicks want to brutally hurt someone.

@hop- daddy Amen!

Yes I definitely agree. I actually deleted all Social Media directly linked to me where I showed myself often... But I do think there are different levels and categories.

@deborah-craig I am sure that what he did was very wrong, that's horrible. Just because someone may be hurting in some way doesn't make it right to hurt others. I was just trying to say they're usually blinded to the destruction they cause by their own problems and self interests. Sorry If I explained that wrong, I understand first hand how hard it is to forgive someone who treats you horribly. Best of wishes.

@hop-daddy  I think that some narcissists are narcissists their whole lives, but I've found a lot of them simply never learned empathy or understand why it's important to care for others.  My mother doesn't believe in Karma, and I find that what you put out (whether its positive or negative) will be returned.

I know I learned Empathy through self suffering... but at the same time I don't think people are born like us to begin with... I think Empaths process things deeper than most people overall. I distinctly remember a time in my life where I feel like I "woke up" almost... I don't really know how to describe it except I was more connected to things and I felt completely different. I just started processing things on an entirely different level... it was a noticeable difference for me.... I honestly believe some people never "wake up" and just go through life going through the motions... It's dull and colorless in a way... It's my opinion through my experiences that most narcissists are mostly these "asleep" people, if you will, who are blinded in self interests, and never come to an understanding that we do that everything is connected and related.. that's all I'm trying to say with it... But some Narcissists seem so past the edge that there is no return, I most definitely agree with that. Gosh they leave such an imprint on our life that we talk about them online as well... I try my best to forgive (not forget, but forgive) not for the sake of them, but for myself. As William Shakespeare says, "Love me or Hate me, both are in my favor... If you love me, I'll always be in your heart... If you hate me, I'll always be in your mind."   Narcs and Empaths balance each other and I think it's important to realize that. There are less Empaths because choosing forgiveness is harder than holding grudges not trying to help people and the world... sorry this is so preachy, I just realized how much power the wrongs people, especially narcissists did held over my personal growth and happiness, and I decided to give it up and it's helped me wonders. We're healers by nature and I think we're suppose to promote positivity. I don't mean to sound like I agree with or like I'm trying to take a Narcissists side. I just hate seeing others consumed by their deeds the same way I have been before.

@loconoro No need for apology,I knew what you meant.😀

My son shows narcissistic traits, his father being a narc, and unfortunately it appears that he inherited this trait. He also shows signs of being an empath. I bring the empathness up to him to discuss but never wants to go there. Now since he lives with me I do see the toxicity that the empath/narc dynamic can bring. I do wonder why the two are brought together as well.

I don't think i have any manipulative narcissists in my family. I do think that I've attracted a lot of narcissist as "friends" though.

Somehow I've stumbled across a channel on youtube that's run by a lady named Lisa A Romano. She is an empath and talks about her bad experiences with narcissists, such as her ex-husband, past boyfriends, and son. She describes the textbook narcissist as someone who at first seems VERY charming, open, and understanding which makes them SEEM very empathetic like an empath. However, narcissist don't actually feel guilt for their actions and therefore manipulate people for their own gain.

When I'm around a narcissists, I usually feel bad emotionally, but never tied to get away. Maybe that's because narcissists are always looking for people to manipulate people for themselves, and I'm always trying to help people and fall into their trap.

Lisa A Romano's video helped me understand this cycle, and also is very helpful in encouraging how to get out of these situations and "recover" from them.

"It's a complete struggle just to co-exist." I think that's part of the lesson

My mother falls under a "cluster B" personality disorder, which is borderline, histrionic,narcissist, and anti-social, accept she doesn't really fall under the anti-social catagory part of it. She is also German. Most of my family is very easy going, but I have been told by many of my mom's siblings that she is just like their dad, accept she doesn't drink. When I was growing up I figured she was a control freak, "do as I say, not as I do" type deal. She was overly strict, I was not allowed to question her and I hated her. I was more passive/submissive, as was my dad and she ruled us with an iron fist, until I turned 12. This is when I started fighting against it and...well, let's just say , it got real ugly!

Then I went to nursing school, I was studying mental health nursing and worked in the field to gain experience. This opened my eyes when I met a woman who suffered from mania. She was alot like my mother in her "adhd" and the personality disorders seemed to fit. As we got older, the roles began to change as I assumed more of an adult role and realized how much of a child she actually was. I understand why she was the way she was, why she does what she does now, and blah,blah,blah, but I also began to look into soul ages. I noticed that I gravitated towards "narcissists" in relationships, and I realized something, they ALL acted like my mother. They are like a bunch of children! I figured out that if you research soul ages, (you know how some people are "old souls" and some people are "young souls" narcissists actually have alot of traits of young children. They are often selfish, self-pleasing, attention seeking, it's their way or a tantrum. On a deeper level then the brain and mental health, I have come to the conclusion that these people are very young souls, they haven't evolved into maturity. Empath's are often older souls that have the patience and ability to nurture these "children". Our job is to help them grow and evolve on a soul level. They serve a couple purposes actually. The first, they help us to learn boundaries, meaning that Empath's are typically quiet, don't like conflict, people pleaser's and pushover's. We usually will become a doormat before beginning a war. These people teach us to stand up for ourselves. Since Empath's often self sacrifice and rarely thing of themselves, these people force us to think about ourselves, our safety, our well-being. We are forced to stand up, we're forced to figure out boundaries, what we will tolerate and what we won't, to speak up, to fight back and to learn when to walk away! Without these "children", would we ever learn to do this? probably not. Does it mean we should seek them out? No, they will find us on their own,lol. Since I took the control away from my mother, I am often the one that takes the lead, I explain situations, she doesn't like, but she depends on it. I set the boundaries a long time ago. I used to think she was the strongest woman on the planet and then realized that most of her stregnth was forged from fear. She was always competitive with me ( I always hated that) but realized the reason she does it is due to her own feelings of inferiority and low self esteem. This is a common theme with narcissists. It's all about themselves...like small children. They will grow up eventually and if they are in the same soul family, it's going to require alot of patience. But through the extreme oppossites, the two conflicting sides, eventually do create balance.

Regardless of the narcissism, my mother is an Empath and Medium, though she will never admit or accept this They can be Empath's because Empath is merely someone who is more sensitive to psychic energy. We channel energy and take it on as our own. Just because we can feel someone else's pain, we also channel people's joy, we can channel behaviors. Trying not to downplay it, but when you boil it all down, all it is is a sensitivity to energy and and exchange of energy. And how that energy is used will depend on the person receiving that energy.

Anyway's on the greater scheme of things I can see the purpose of it, but it doesn't mean I have to like it Anyway's, this is just one perception.

@angel

I really like your perception and I love where you talked about the "Soul Ages", I never considered that aspect. I have similar views but I never connected the two and how they balance each other the way you did. Wonderful comment 

@angel
Your post really resonated with me. You are right about the soul age thing...all of the narcs that I have known have all come across as acting like two year olds. All the way down to the temper tantrums. It is hard to deal with, but apparently this is something that I am to learn at this time in my journey. Since my son has come to live here with me, I have had more ups and downs.....and it's only been three weeks. It is hard because he knows how to make me feel sorry for him. I am starting to see the manipulation that he is trying, still struggling with boundaries since I am a physical empath, it is hard to not take on all of the crap. It really wears me out.
@empphire
Thanks for the info on the YouTube videos. This is something that I will definitely have to check out.
Blessings

"why in the world does the universe throw empaths and narcissists together in the same families?"

I've heard multiple (potential) explanations for this.. Here are a couple that still stand out to me

-It's life's way of balancing, to bring two extremes together. 

-Being around a narcissist/being narcissistically abused ironically increases empathy/empathic ability in those who are abused. I've done (way too much) research on this topic and found a highly interesting link between empathic ability and resulting codependency from narcissistic abuse. On the CODA website one of the codependent traits listed is that of absorbing others' feelings and not being able to tell if they're ours or theirs. But narcissistic abuse also increases 'goodness'  in victims --- warm/hot empathy, and desire to use empathic abilities for making a positive difference in the world --

For instance, here's a youtube comment I thought was interesting:

"[Narcissists] also probably groomed you to be their victim when they taught you how to be a 'good girl' - even though with narcissists you will never be good enough, no matter how hard you try. The irony is that this goodness can save you in the end and heal you with some help, their narcissism will never do that for them."

As to your second question --

I think the answer lies within the difference and connection between hot and cold empathy, since cold empathy can be 'bloodcurdlingly accurate,' which is truly the dark side of empathy:https://agnesvriezeblog.wordpress.com/tag/cold-empathy/

p.s. Since people on here seem curious/speculative about this : ), I've also done lots of research on what causes narcissism in children and found that (in addition to people being 'born with a propensity to be narcissistic'), the leading cause is an 'indulgent and permissive' parenting style. To add more personal experience to this, I also have a friend who is narcissistic and he told me his parents spoiled and 'coddled' him a lot growing up -- he was the youngest child in his family. A secondary cause is lack of affection. My theory is that - often - highly empathetic codependents (people who love to please others) are more likely to be indulgent parents, creating children who are narcissistic, and narcissistic parents are likely to be controlling in an attempt to create 'ideal' children - which creates empathic codependents.. in a circle :/ But the crazy thing is that narcissism is a type of codependency, so really, the codependent traits on CODA.org are what need to be overcome in order to achieve healthy relationships, in my opinion. 

updated by @kit-kat: 04/30/17 11:35:56PM

@angel

Thanks for your input. You are the first one I've seen state that a narc can have empathic abilities as well. This is something that I am seeing with my own extended family members. And your Mom sounds a lot like mine. Although my Mom is in her 70s now and has mellowed out in recent years. And as she has become more calm and selfless, she has become more empath-like.

Interestingly my Mom's Mom was a sociopath. But my Mom's grandmother from what I've heard was a very powerful medium. So we have this family history of empaths and narcs/sociopaths coexisting in our blood line.

My ex fiance was a narc. Typical narc as he just sucked the life out of me. Taking and taking but not giving back. They are drawn to people who can help them as they can't help themselves, the empath. In person they may act like an angel, on social media I agree it's what they post or say. I'm starting to notice the wording they use when they speak or write, and that stench of BS makes me sick.

I'm all for helping others, and now I'm making myself more aware and will just cut the BS they give. After years of being taken advantage of you can't help but to grow a tight backbone. I look like the jerk to them, and I don't care. I tried to help, but I can see taking advantage of starting to happen. I'm starting to think my best friend is a narc, although I'm still in denial about it, hard to ignore the signs. I cut contact back with her this year and she flipped out on me a few times. It really bothered me that she's doing that, but I stood up for myself.

Putting up a stance to a narc I've noticed is this feeling of powerless from them and some kind of sadness. It's a battle of emotions I feel inside too.

I am not sure if they know what they do on a conscious level or not, however, the damage done to the person being manipulated is the same. I have been dealing with this with my son (narc) now for over a month....yesterday it came to a head and I took a stand. He has literally drained me and has successfully lowered my energy and vibration in the process. It's been especially hard being around him as an empath since I had been absorbing his inner turmoil (I have mentioned the issues he had but of course, denial) and confusing it as my own. Even though I was recognizing it as not mine, the draining of my energy on a daily basis took its toll. Oh how they know how to push your buttons. He totally thrives on drama and gets a twisted thrill out of causing scenes in public. My step granddaughter's graduation was NOT the place for that. I told him that he is going to have to find another place to live....then the social media BS started. It's crazy...I think this time I have learned my lesson and cut chords for good (I'm sure I will have to continue doing so though, since he is bound to me by blood). No more feeling sorry for him after creating situations to place himself as the victim once more. Yesterday was a clarifying moment of how he plays people against each other to cause turmoil and to make him look like a victim. I overheard some of the things he was saying to his dad (also a narc) on the phone after the confrontation....lie after lie after lie to make me out to sound crazy....even told him I was crazy. All over telling him it wasn't going to work out living here. All apologies for ranting........:/
Since successfully cutting chords last night though, I am feeling like myself and more in control over the situation. I have not liked the person I had become.....I have come to realize this hard lesson that he cannot be fixed so I have to turn him loose no matter what the outcome. I have also determined that I will have to go no contact with him even though he is my son so as to not be reeled in by the pity party again. He is an adult and needs to deal with the karma he creates on his own.

I'm a little late to the discussion here, but my mother is a Narcissist. The thing is she exhibits traits of an empath as well. She even SEEMS to be spiritually advanced, which makes me doubt what I know. She has some mental problems that have not be diagnosed, one in particular being bipolar disorder. Growing up with her, I acted VERY much like her. It wasn't until I set boundaries with her and moved away that I began to see myself as my own person. It was like the difference between total darkness and day time. I have I thought for years I was crazy, that I was a bad person. I have so much anger about this situation. I had to lose one parent and the universe saw that the other one had mental diseases that never really allowed her to be a parent.  Nevermind the fact that I believe I chose my parents before being reborn here on earth... I didn't mean to ramble on about my situation, but I just find it curious so many of us seem to have grown up with narcissistic parents, or are attracted to relationships with narcissists.

I've just recently, in the last 5-6 years, begun to realize when I'm picking up on someone else's feelings, rather than taking them on as my own. Partly because of the realization that once I was away from my mother I was a completely different person. It made me realize that I was picking up on her energy, and the energy of others around me. Maybe that is why the narcissist/empath connection is so strong. Maybe they are here to teach us about ourselves and our abilities.

Not sure why it is that many of us end up living these extremely traumatic lives, and want to live with borderline sociopathic people that tend to traumatize us further, but I end up doing many things I'm compelled to do without knowing why. The empath meme post from Tigerlilly was interesting.

I have been pondering the Narcissist/ Empath Co-dependant dance for a while now. For myself, I feel that I developed sensitivity as a survival technique. While I think I would have been intuitive from birth, having to navigate a childhood with parents who both had high narcissistic traits, made me more Empathic. What better way to desperately get attention, love and approval from perfectionist parents who constantly moved the bar than to "game" the emotional blackmail by knowing what they were feeling, thinking or wanting before they even verbilized it? 

Because everyone wants to feel connected, loved and complete, we all do what we can to get that feeling of unconditional love. Narcissists are so disconnected from a sense of wellbeing and connected to divine love that they manipulate others into feeding them from their own energy. Empaths are almost too sensitive,( feeling everyone's emotions, able to sense when they are happy or not.) I was often drawn in by simple Narc manipulations and games, like " Poor Me I need to be Rescued and Loved but I'm a Narc and I will never love you back", or " I would feel better if You would just Bend Over Backward to Please Me "( Rage tantrum if I didn't ), or " I'm Bored so I will trigger you into a fight for my Narc amusment and Attention."

I am grateful for the selfish people who have made me what I am today. I am also working to clear out all those lies and energetic blocks that crippled me spiritually. When Depression decended yet again, or I found myslef in another Narc, Empath relationship I now trace the original memory of when I spiritually agreed to allow that negative belief to play out in my experience. I hunt it down and dissolve it with Source energy, Divine Love, Positive Light, God and replace that old faulty belief with one that is good, loving and serves me in a positive way. I am on my journey. I find plenty of energetic crud to clear out. It gets better.

If you want to know why can tell you in spiritual terms. It's up to you whether you want to see it this way, but it gives me hope. 

ALL people need to become empathic in order for the world to be at peace. If that happens war will no longer be necessary. We will be able to work together with extreme efficiency. We won't have to speak much at all. The bond between humans will eliminate distrust and allows us to love. It's our job to impress on to the rest of humanity that this is what they really want. What stands in the way of that happening? Judgment, fear, contempt, anger, resentment, lust, pride, and so forth. We know this they don't. We have to convince them with love and patience. It's our journey too, which builds character. We grow and help them do the same. It's progress, it's a purpose.

I love what @indego-dog said. I think she gets it.

Both of my parents were narcissist and my brother also. My sister and myself are Empaths but she will bind over backwards to please them. She worries why the don't love her. I use to try to fit in but not anymore more. When they come at me it's like hitting a brick wall. That's why they don't visit or call me. My mom died but she died a narcissist. Never changed. I do miss family functions but it get though them by telling myself "it's just one day and it will end at midnight and I don't have to put up with their energy. It gets easier each holiday. But my sister has joined them now and I'm the complete outcast but this outcast can lay down at night with no regrets. It took my a long time to realize it's not my fault and I can't change them so I leave them be...until the next time they want to cross me. I'm not hateful but these people ruined my whole childhood making me feel I wasn't good enough.

@rene- I could say the same thing, "they" ruined my childhood. I was lucky my Mother was an empath, but she played into the game the rest of my family was playing. I don't blame her because I know now how it is. That dynamic they create, it sucks. I would think about all my hopes and dreams that were dashed and held on to that resentment. Until I realized I was giving them power over my life by doing so. 

Now I take full control and responsibility for my own emotions. I forgive them. All of them. If I were to tell you everything that happened you might think I'm letting them off the hook, so to speak. I let myself off the hook instead. The past has no bearing on the future anymore. Simply by forgiving them, without asking them to acknowledge their wrong doing, I take my life back. It was so hard to do until I did it. That's when I got the understanding of why we do it. In a way, they gave me a gift.